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Journal

1984

Kansas State University Libraries

Cattlemen's Day

Articles 1 - 30 of 36

Full-Text Articles in Life Sciences

Feeding Bulls-A Practical Evaluation, D. Simms, L. Corah, Gerry L. Kuhl, R. Schalles Jan 1984

Feeding Bulls-A Practical Evaluation, D. Simms, L. Corah, Gerry L. Kuhl, R. Schalles

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Bull calves on nine Kansas ranches were either castrated and implanted with Ralgro, left intact and not implanted, or left intact and implanted with Ralgro, with performance evaluated through slaughter. Bulls produced leaner carcasses and gained slightly faster and more efficiently than steers. However, based on actual prices received, bulls returned $16.09 less to their owners than steers. Implanting with Ralgro during the suckling phase did not influence any of the traits measured. It is evident that marketing is a major problem which makes bull feeding risky


Comparison Of Synovex-S And Steer-Oid Implants For Feedlot Steers, B. Lee, S. Laudert Jan 1984

Comparison Of Synovex-S And Steer-Oid Implants For Feedlot Steers, B. Lee, S. Laudert

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Synovex-S and STEER-oid were compared in a 133-day finishing trial to evaluate their effects on growth and carcass traits of yearling steers. No significant differences in average daily gain, feed intake, feed to gain ratio, carcass weight, ribeye area, fat thickness, quality grade or yield grade were detected between the two implants at the end of the trial. However, significant differences in feed efficiency were detected during days 0-35 and 36-63, possibly due to different release rates of the implants.


Effects Of Low Voltage Electrical Stimulation On Quality Characteristics Of Young Bulls Fed To 14, 16 And 18 Months Of Age., D.G. Gray, John A. Unruh, Curtis L. Kastner, Michael E. Dikeman Jan 1984

Effects Of Low Voltage Electrical Stimulation On Quality Characteristics Of Young Bulls Fed To 14, 16 And 18 Months Of Age., D.G. Gray, John A. Unruh, Curtis L. Kastner, Michael E. Dikeman

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Low voltage electrical stimulation of young bulls at 30 to 45 min after bleeding resulted in a lower muscle pH, higher marbling score, lighter cherry red color and reduced incidence of heat ring formation when compared to non-stimulated controls. Ribeye steaks from electrically stimulated sides were more tender than non-stimulated controls, but bottom round steaks were not different. Our results indicate that low voltage electrical stimulation, incorporated into a continuous slaughter operation as late as 30 to 45 min after bleeding, can improve USDA quality characteristics and tenderness of meat from young bulls.


Medication Programs For Newly Received Calves, D. Axe, M. Spire, Jack G. Riley Jan 1984

Medication Programs For Newly Received Calves, D. Axe, M. Spire, Jack G. Riley

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Three medication programs for newly purchased feeder calves were compared and found to be similar in effectiveness. There was considerable variation in cost between the three medication programs which indicates a potential cost saving opportunity. Twenty-three percent of the calves received were diagnosed as sick at least once during the 56-day trial.


Culbac® And Add-F® (Formic Acid) Additives For Sudangrass And High Moisture Shelled Corn Silages, K. Bolsen, M. Hinds, H. Ilg Jan 1984

Culbac® And Add-F® (Formic Acid) Additives For Sudangrass And High Moisture Shelled Corn Silages, K. Bolsen, M. Hinds, H. Ilg

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Laboratory silos were used in three trials to evaluate sudangrass (slightly or moderately wilted) and high moisture corn silages, each receiving the following treatments: (1) control (no additive); (2) CULBAC® dry; (3) CULBAC® liquid; and (4) ADD-F® (formic acid). Although the 12 silages were well preserved visually, there were differences in their chemical compositions. Silages treated with CULBAC dry had the highest DM recoveries and probably the most efficient fermentations. As expected, formic acid restricted the amount of fermentation, but surprisingly, it did not improve DM recovery.


Comparison Of Compudose With Ralgro Or Synovex-S Reimplant Programs For Finishing Steers, S.B. Laudert, G.V. Jr. Davis Jan 1984

Comparison Of Compudose With Ralgro Or Synovex-S Reimplant Programs For Finishing Steers, S.B. Laudert, G.V. Jr. Davis

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Finishing yearling steers reimplanted with Synovex-S or Ralgro gained 6.8 and 4.2% faster, respectively, than those implanted with Compudose. However, feed efficiency was not significantly different among treatments. Steers implanted with Compudose gained 5.1% faster and more efficiently than those implanted with a single Ralgro.


Relationship Of Cow Weight, Cow Condition And Dosage Of Prostaglandin On Synchronized Heat, D. Simms, L. Corah Jan 1984

Relationship Of Cow Weight, Cow Condition And Dosage Of Prostaglandin On Synchronized Heat, D. Simms, L. Corah

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Simmental cows on two Kansas ranches received either 2 or 3 ml injections of prostaglandin cloprostenol (Estrumate). Dose levels had little effect on response rate in either small or large cows. However, for each unit increase in body condition score, 12% more cows expressed heat.


Effect Of Oxytetracycline Hydrochloride Coating Added To Compudose Implants In Grazing Steers, Lyle W. Lomas Jan 1984

Effect Of Oxytetracycline Hydrochloride Coating Added To Compudose Implants In Grazing Steers, Lyle W. Lomas

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Adding an oxytetracycline coating to Compudose implants did not change their effectiveness. Implanting with Compudose significantly increased gain of grazing steers an average of 17% compared to non-implanted controls.


The Weather In 1982 And 1983, L. Dean Bark Jan 1984

The Weather In 1982 And 1983, L. Dean Bark

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

The 1983 weather in Kansas upset carefully laid plans and confounded the best management techniques. Yet the averages for 1982 and 1983 appear very similar. In Manhattan, the average temperatures were 54.04 F for 1982 and 54.06 for 1983. Precipitation totals were 32.88 in. for 1982 and 35.74 in. for 1983. However, those who watched their crops dry up in the summer of 1983 after delayed planting because of wet fields, and suffered with their livestock through heat stress in July and August and cold stress during December know differently. Neither our crops nor our livestock ever experience "average" weather. …


Urea And Fermentrol® Additives For Forage Sorghum Silage, B. Janicki, K. Bolsen, M. Hinds, H. Ilg Jan 1984

Urea And Fermentrol® Additives For Forage Sorghum Silage, B. Janicki, K. Bolsen, M. Hinds, H. Ilg

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Adding urea to forage sorghum greatly increased the ensiling temperature, produced a more rapid and extensive fermentation, and resulted in more shrink loss in the silo. Fermentrol®, an enzyme-inoculant additive, had very little affect on the silage temperature or chemical composition, but it did reduce the shrink loss. Calves red urea-treated silage had the poorest performance. Control and Fermentrol® silages each produced about 90 lb of calf gain per ton of crop ensiled, however urea silage produced only 60 lb. All three silages had short bunk lives throughout the trial.


Comparison Of Compudose®, Ralgro® And Synovex-C® For Suckling Steer Calves, D.D. Simms, R. Schalles Jan 1984

Comparison Of Compudose®, Ralgro® And Synovex-C® For Suckling Steer Calves, D.D. Simms, R. Schalles

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

The comparative growth-promoting value of Compudose, Ralgro, Ralgro + Ralgro reimplant, and Synovex-C + Synovex-C reimplant was evaluated on five Kansas ranches with 674 suckling steer calves in seven trials conducted during 1982 and 1983. The Ralgro + Ralgro reimplant program increased gain significantly (P<.05) over controls, with an average improvement of 3.9%. Either a single Ralgro or Compudose implant at branding increased gain about 2.6%. Implanting with Synovex-C produced 1% improvement in gain.


Effects Of Low Voltage Electrical Stimulation During Bleeding And Hot Boning On Beef Loin Eye And Top Round Muscles, J.B. Axe, Melvin C. Hunt, Donald H. Kropf, D.G. Gray, Curtis L. Kastner, Michael E. Dikeman Jan 1984

Effects Of Low Voltage Electrical Stimulation During Bleeding And Hot Boning On Beef Loin Eye And Top Round Muscles, J.B. Axe, Melvin C. Hunt, Donald H. Kropf, D.G. Gray, Curtis L. Kastner, Michael E. Dikeman

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Our study evaluated the effects of low voltage electrical stimulation (ES) during bleeding and hot boning at 1 hr postmortem on loin eye (LE) and top round (TR) muscles. Possibly because of relatively slow initial chilling rate used in our study, hot-boned (HB) muscles, even without ES, were comparable to conventionally chilled and boned counterparts. In fact, coupling ES with HB proved less desirable than HB only.


Silo-Best® For Sorghum Silages, K. Bolsen, H. Ilg, M. Hinds Jan 1984

Silo-Best® For Sorghum Silages, K. Bolsen, H. Ilg, M. Hinds

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Silo-Best lowered the ensiling temperature and increased the dry matter recovered from the silo by over 5 percentage units (82.3 vs. 77.3%). Calves fed the control silage gained faster and consumed more feed, but those fed treated silage were slightly more efficient. The more efficient gain and lowered shrink loss for Silo-Best silage gave 6.4 extra pounds of calf gain per ton of crop ensiled.


Comparison Of Compudose, Ralgro And Synovex-S Implants For Growing Steer Calves, D. Simm, Gerry L. Kuhl, R. Schalles Jan 1984

Comparison Of Compudose, Ralgro And Synovex-S Implants For Growing Steer Calves, D. Simm, Gerry L. Kuhl, R. Schalles

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Four field trials were conducted to compare Ralgro, Synovex-S and Compudose implants for growing steer calves. All implant programs significantly increased (P<.01) average daily gain. Reimplanting with Ralgro or Synovex-S improved gain an additional 5.6% compared to the average of these implants used singly and 4.8% compared to Compudose.


Effect Of A Single Ralgro Implant On Conception Rates And Calving Difficulty In First Calf Beef Heifers, R.P. Bolze, L.R. Corah, R.J. Pruitt Jan 1984

Effect Of A Single Ralgro Implant On Conception Rates And Calving Difficulty In First Calf Beef Heifers, R.P. Bolze, L.R. Corah, R.J. Pruitt

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Three hundred and seventy four heifers from two Kansas ranches were used to determine if a single Ralgro implant given either at two months of age or at weaning would influence pelvic development and subsequent calving difficulty or conception rates. The study involved two hers of Simmental (spring and fall calving) and one herd of fall calving Angus cattle. Ralgro did not influence conception rates as yearlings, or percentages of heifers requiring assistance with their first calf. Implanted heifers had larger pelvic areas as yearlings, but the advantage disappeared by two years of age. Pelvic area in assisted vs unassisted …


Silo Guard Ii® For Alfalfa, Corn, And Forage Sorghum Silages, K. Bolsen, H. Ilg, M. Hinds Jan 1984

Silo Guard Ii® For Alfalfa, Corn, And Forage Sorghum Silages, K. Bolsen, H. Ilg, M. Hinds

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

In the first trial, calves fed Silo Guard II®-treated forage sorghum silage were 4.2% more efficient than those fed the control silage. Silo Guard II reduced the amount of heat produced during the ensiling process, and increased the dry matter recovered from the silo by nearly 7 percentage units (84.1 vs. 77.2%). The more efficient gain and reduced shrink loss for the treated silage gave 8.3% extra pounds of calf gain per ton of crop ensiled when compared with the control silage. In the second trial, laboratory silos were used to evaluate three levels of Silo Guard II (.5, 1.0, …


Toxicity Problems With Ammoniated Dry Roughages, D. Simms, Gerry L. Kuhl, J. Brethour Jan 1984

Toxicity Problems With Ammoniated Dry Roughages, D. Simms, Gerry L. Kuhl, J. Brethour

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

In two trials conducted at the Fort Hays Experiment Station, symptoms of toxicity (hyperexcitability, circling, convulsions, death) were observed in several newborn calves (l to 14 days of age) nursing cows consuming ammoniated forage sorghum hay. None of these symptoms was observed in calves nursing cows consuming untreated hay. No toxicity symptoms were observed in the cows on any treatment. However, several instances of similar symptoms in cattle consuming ammoniated forages have been reported in growing calves and adult cattle in Kansas, Texas, California, and Kentucky. The primary forages involved in these incidents were forage sorghum, hybrid sudan, cereal grain, …


Stocking Rate And Supplementation For Steers Grazing Bluestem Pasture In Early Summer, R. Held, Jack G. Riley, Clenton E. Owensby, E. Smith Jan 1984

Stocking Rate And Supplementation For Steers Grazing Bluestem Pasture In Early Summer, R. Held, Jack G. Riley, Clenton E. Owensby, E. Smith

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Native bluestem pastures were grazed from May 16 to July 14, 1983 by steers with an average beginning weight of 545lbs., at stocking rates of 1.82, 1.5, and 1.25 acres per steer. Daily gains for the high and low stocking rates were higher (P<.01) than for the medium stocking rate (2.22, 2.24 vs. 1.92 lb/day). Gains per acre were similar for the low and medium stocking rates, but was higher for the highest stocking rate (73, 75 vs 105 lb/acre). Half of the steers in each stocking rate were self-fed a salt-limiting sorghum grain- Rumensin® mixture at an average intake of 1.84 lb per head per day. Supplementation increased daily gain (P<.01) over non-supplemented (2.39 vs. 1.86 lb/day). Gain per acre was increased 22 lbs by supplementation. Herbage remaining following grazing decline with increased stocking rate. No regrowth occurred following livestock removal in mid July. Warm-season perennial grass composition and basal cover have not changed differentially in relation to stocking rate during the 3-year study period.


Effect Of Sorghum Type And Harvest Date On Silage Feeding Value, R. Smith, K. Bolsen, H. Ilg, M. Hinds, J. Dickerson, J. Hoover, Ronald V. Pope Jan 1984

Effect Of Sorghum Type And Harvest Date On Silage Feeding Value, R. Smith, K. Bolsen, H. Ilg, M. Hinds, J. Dickerson, J. Hoover, Ronald V. Pope

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Five silages produced in 1982 were evaluated in two growing trials using 96 steer calves. Forage sorghum silage (heading) was assigned a feeding value of 100. Based on comparative rates and efficiencies of gain, feeding value for the grain sorghum silage averaged 107.5 in Trial 1. The non-heading forage sorghum silage had a value of 64.6 in Trial 1 but only 40.2 before freezing and 31.4 after freezing in Trial 2. The poor values for the non-heading silages were due, in part, to very low feed intakes. There was no advantage in harvesting the non-heading sorghum after a freeze. Rolling …


Silage Additive Update: 1984, K. Bolsen, M. Hinds, J. Brethour Jan 1984

Silage Additive Update: 1984, K. Bolsen, M. Hinds, J. Brethour

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Numerous commercial silage additives, whose manufacturers claim will improve silage quality, are available to Kansas farmers and ranchers. We believe that these claims must ultimately be documented with farm-scale research. To date, Manhattan and Ft. Hays farm-scale silo results clearly indicate that a few silage additives do improve silage quality and are cost-effective. Several of them have consistently reduced "in silo" losses. But results probably will not be favorable with all additives under every farm condition. Nor will research results obtained with one commercial product in our trials also apply to other products on the market, however similar in ingredient …


Sodium Bicarbonate And Feed Flavor Supplements For Calves Fed Forage Sorghum Silage, K. Bolsen, D. Axe Jan 1984

Sodium Bicarbonate And Feed Flavor Supplements For Calves Fed Forage Sorghum Silage, K. Bolsen, D. Axe

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

High-moisture forage sorghum silage was fed to 108 steer calves to measure the effect of sodium bicarbonate and feed flavor (Omniflavor®) on calf performance. Overall performance was similar for all three rations by the end of the 94-day trial, but at days 29 to 56, when weather conditions were extremely cold, bicarbonate and Omniflavor each gave improved rate and efficiency of gains.


Implant Comparisons For Finishing Steers, S. Laudert, Gerry L. Kuhl, M. Walker Jan 1984

Implant Comparisons For Finishing Steers, S. Laudert, Gerry L. Kuhl, M. Walker

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

A one hundred and forty day field trial was conducted to evaluate the relative performance of steers implanted with Compudose, Ralgro and Synovex-S. Daily gains of cattle receiving a single initial implant were increased 8.0% with Compudose, 12.7% with Ralgro and 21.5% with Synovex-S compared to non-implanted controls. Steers on a reimplant program with Ralgro and/or Synovex-S gained 23.6 to 24.9% faster than controls, with no significant difference due to implant brand or sequence.


Effect Of Insecticide Impregnated Ear Tags On Horn Fly Populations And Suckling Calf Performance, D. Simms, T. Willman, R. Schalles Jan 1984

Effect Of Insecticide Impregnated Ear Tags On Horn Fly Populations And Suckling Calf Performance, D. Simms, T. Willman, R. Schalles

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Three trials were conducted to determine the effect of insecticide impregnated ear tags on horn fly counts and weight gain of suckling calves. In trials 1 and 2, cow calf pairs on two Kansas ranches were assigned to these treatments: 1) Control - no tag, 2) Cows Only - 1 tag per cow, 3) Calf Only - 1 tag per calf, and 4) Cow and Calf - 1 tag each. Each tag treatment was in a separate pasture. All insecticide tag treatments reduced (P<.05) horn flies on cows and calves in July and August; however, by September the tags were only reducing (P<.05) flies on cows. While the weight gain response to tags was variable, when trials were combined, all tag treatments increased (P<.05) calf gains over controls. Using a single tag per cow was better (P<.05) than a single tag per calf, while tagging both the cow and calf was no better than either single tag treatment. Average fly counts for each pasture were negatively correlated with calf weight gains indicating a strong relationship between fly populations and calf performance. In trial 3, apparent horn fly resistance to the insecticide in the tags resulted in terminating the trial mid-summer. Research in Kansas and other states indicates that horn fly resistance to pyrethroid insecticides is becoming a common problem which means that producers may need to revert to previously used methods of horn fly control.


Kansas Steer Futurities - The Record On Retained Ownership 1974-1983, C. Lambert, D. Simms, B. Schalles, L. Corah, Gerry L. Kuhl, M. Sands Jan 1984

Kansas Steer Futurities - The Record On Retained Ownership 1974-1983, C. Lambert, D. Simms, B. Schalles, L. Corah, Gerry L. Kuhl, M. Sands

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Spring born steer calves, weaned and delivered to custom feedlots by Kansas producers, were fed to slaughter weight. Gain and carcass information was gathered on over 5,000 head fed in 53 separate tests since the fall of 1974. Retaining ownership of steers through the feedlot phase has been profitable for producers in six of the last nine years, and in only two years have losses been large. Those same calves, if sold at weaning, would have been profitable in only three of the last nine years, using Kansas Farm Management Association average costs of production. The cattle averaged 59 percent …


Performance And Profitability Of Calves And Yearlings In Southeast Kansas Steer Futurities (Seven Year Summary), C. Lambert, F. Brazle, L. Corah, R. Schalles Jan 1984

Performance And Profitability Of Calves And Yearlings In Southeast Kansas Steer Futurities (Seven Year Summary), C. Lambert, F. Brazle, L. Corah, R. Schalles

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Since the fall of 1976, 370 calves and 330 yearlings have been fed through the Southeast Kansas Steer Futurities. In four of the last seven years, both age categories have shown profits through the feedlot phase, using incoming market values assigned by professional market managers, actual feedlot performance and expenses, and slaughter value based on grade and yield date. Calves have been more profitable than yearlings in each of the seven years.


Effects Of Low Voltage Electrical Stimulation During Bleeding On Characteristics Of Beef Loin Eye Top Round Muscles, Donald H. Kropf, Melvin C. Hunt, John A. Unruh, Curtis L. Kastner, Michael E. Dikeman Jan 1984

Effects Of Low Voltage Electrical Stimulation During Bleeding On Characteristics Of Beef Loin Eye Top Round Muscles, Donald H. Kropf, Melvin C. Hunt, John A. Unruh, Curtis L. Kastner, Michael E. Dikeman

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Low voltage electrical stimulation (ES) during bleeding and subsequent carcass chilling at 36 to 46° F resulted in 1) a more rapid pH decline 2) initial lighter red color, but more rapid discoloration during display 3) softer and coarser textured lean 4) reduced water holding capacity and juiciness and 5) decreased tenderness of the loin eye longissimus (LE) muscle when compared to the non-stimulated control (C) LE muscle. ES effects on top round semimembranosus (TR) muscle were limited to a more rapid pH decline and lower water holding capacity. Our results indicate that ES soon after slaughter, coupled with relatively …


Effect Of Ralgro® Implantation Periods On Masculinity And Carcass Traits Of Young Bulls And Steers., D.G. Gray, L.R. Corah, John A. Unruh, Michael E. Dikeman Jan 1984

Effect Of Ralgro® Implantation Periods On Masculinity And Carcass Traits Of Young Bulls And Steers., D.G. Gray, L.R. Corah, John A. Unruh, Michael E. Dikeman

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Repeated Ralgro® implantation of young bulls from birth to slaughter resulted in gains and carcass characteristics traits intermediate between non-implanted bulls and steers, and meat palatability traits similar to steers. On the other hand, implanting bulls near birth reduced postweaning gains and both live and carcass masculinity. There is little advantages to implanting bulls from weaning to slaughter without initial implantation at birth.


Consumer Preference Of Beef Rib Steaks From Implanted Steers, Implanted And Non-Implanted Bulls., C.D. Pelton, Dell M. Allen, L.R. Corah, George A. Milliken Jan 1984

Consumer Preference Of Beef Rib Steaks From Implanted Steers, Implanted And Non-Implanted Bulls., C.D. Pelton, Dell M. Allen, L.R. Corah, George A. Milliken

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Our research showed that implanting bulls from birth to slaughter made steaks from bulls as acceptable as steers to consumer panels. Implanting bulls from weaning to slaughter resulted in the least desirable consumer panel ratings for all palatability traits measured.


Feedlot Performance Of Angus And Brahman X Angus Steers During Cold Weather, S. Boyles, Jack G. Riley, Ronald V. Pope Jan 1984

Feedlot Performance Of Angus And Brahman X Angus Steers During Cold Weather, S. Boyles, Jack G. Riley, Ronald V. Pope

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Straightbred Angus steers gained .21 lb/day faster than Brahman x Angus steers during a 184-day winter feeding trial. Angus steers had a higher yield grade. more fat thickness at 12th rib, and graded 90% Choice. Brahman x Angus steers were 40 days younger at slaughter, had more carcass weight/day of age and larger loin eyes, but only graded 10% choice. There was no difference in feed efficiency.


Effects Of Rapid And Delay Silo Filling And 1177® Silage Inoculant On Performance Of Growing Cattle Fed Corn And Sorghum Silages., K. Bolsen, H. Ilg, M. Hinds, George A. Milliken, J. Hoover Jan 1984

Effects Of Rapid And Delay Silo Filling And 1177® Silage Inoculant On Performance Of Growing Cattle Fed Corn And Sorghum Silages., K. Bolsen, H. Ilg, M. Hinds, George A. Milliken, J. Hoover

Kansas Agricultural Experiment Station Research Reports

Eight concrete stave silos (10 x 50 ft) were used in two trials to evaluate rapid (24 to 36 hr) and delay (15 days) filling, each with our without 1177® silage inoculant. Corn silage was used in Trial 1; forage sorghum in Trial 2. The delay-fill silages had a dry matter (DM) range of 34.4 to 39.9% in Trial 1 and 24.2 to 29.6% in Trial 1. All eight silages were well preserved with the four delay-fill silos having lower total fermentation acids than their rapid-fill counterparts. With corn silage, the rapid-fill silos had higher silage DM recoveries than the …